coir and organic dry amendments

[misterDeeby]

Sorry, I missed it. I don't grow in coco only, it is part of my organic super soil build, and also about 1/2 of my worm bedding build. I quit using peat as it is not really sustainable, and it breaks down too quickly. Coco coir has replaced peat and I like it better.

^^i split this from the box store organics thread, so things would stay more organized.

@Rozgreenburn so is it a simple swap, or do you reduce your liming agent (lime, shell, etc) to compensate for coir being a neutral substrate, vs acidic peat? as the coir decomposes/degrades, do you see a need to flush the sodium it releases, or is the amount inconsequential? do you need to dial back the K in flower, because of the breakdown issue?


I'm struggling with watering, as I'm used to DTW coir. a single drop of runoff, and i see signs of hypoxic roots within hours, and it's 24-36 hours before turgor is restored, and things aren't saggy and to be fully open, the initial mix only included the perlite the factory added to the sunshine#4. my new mix incorporates an additional ≈10-15% perlite. in the mean time, I've learned to balance the water given to not saturate the media, and to move my wet spot around the root zone. this is working beautifully, but I'd like something less..... i don't know..... temperamental?

it's easy to find naysayers for organics in coir, but it seems some Canadian guy (mr canuck?) is the only person championing coir and organics. it's often started the coir won't support microbial and fungal life. which is funny, as i grew a 3" dia bracket fungi in a godbud mother bucket that was well over 2 years old.

where can i start getting real info about living coir? no naysayers, no trolls.

 

[Rozgreenburn]

I don't know how to give a simple answer, so I'll just state the major input items.
I prebatch my mixes in 20 gallon garbage cans, so this would be for 20 gallons of super soil +-.
For a new mix
5 Gallons organic potting soil
2-3 G coco coir
2 G perlite
1 G vermiculite
1 G rice hulls
2-3 G EWC
2-3 compost
1 Cup dolomite lime powder
1 C lime pellets

That is all the bulk items in the mix. Of course there are a good many amendments that are added in much smaller quantities.
If you require the total recipe just LMK, I keep tweaking the amendments in an effort to get it perfect. I really am trying to make it just hot enough to keep thing running. There won't be a perfect mix because of the varied requirements of different strains.

The coir is 10% of my mix at most, I also recharge my used organic soils, and In order to keep the organic theme, only organic and non-chelated amendments can be used. I've been full organic for about 2 years now and I'm learning new tricks still. I've tried most methods, but I believe I'll be sticking with full organics, it just makes sense to me.

I did not find much info when I was switching over, but I purchased the 'rev's' "True Living Organics" which covers a wide range of ideas. I started with his recipe and make changes when I think it will help. You must keep good notes on your methods or you won't know what changes have what effects.

 

[Frosty78]

^^i split this from the box store organics thread, so things would stay more organized.

@Rozgreenburn so is it a simple swap, or do you reduce your liming agent (lime, shell, etc) to compensate for coir being a neutral substrate, vs acidic peat? as the coir decomposes/degrades, do you see a need to flush the sodium it releases, or is the amount inconsequential? do you need to dial back the K in flower, because of the breakdown issue?


I'm struggling with watering, as I'm used to DTW coir. a single drop of runoff, and i see signs of hypoxic roots within hours, and it's 24-36 hours before turgor is restored, and things aren't saggy and to be fully open, the initial mix only included the perlite the factory added to the sunshine#4. my new mix incorporates an additional ≈10-15% perlite. in the mean time, I've learned to balance the water given to not saturate the media, and to move my wet spot around the root zone. this is working beautifully, but I'd like something less..... i don't know..... temperamental?

it's easy to find naysayers for organics in coir, but it seems some Canadian guy (mr canuck?) is the only person championing coir and organics. it's often started the coir won't support microbial and fungal life. which is funny, as i grew a 3" dia bracket fungi in a godbud mother bucket that was well over 2 years old.

where can i start getting real info about living coir? no naysayers, no trolls.

If it breaks down, bacteria or fungi will be present. They are all in the air we breathe and making labs is a perfect example. I love seeing someone go against the grain and trying something new. I better check in on your journal and see how it's going. Good stuff

 

[iwentdoodie]

coco and dry amendments are super hard and dont work, dont try saving money


holy shit every pot is like this

 

[Mr Jay]

Sarcasm can be difficult to translate, sometimes.

You have obviously shown how successful organic inputs can be.

Solid roots from top to bottom. I am jealous.

 

[iwentdoodie]

Sarcasm can be difficult to translate, sometimes.

You have obviously shown how successful organic inputs can be.

Solid roots from top to bottom. I am jealous.

psh what sarcasm, im totally sad i didnt prove reddit correct

man, i am seriously amazed. listening and applying the guidance from you and everyone else after my shitty start and i settled down.

conversation, guidance and suggestions are the best way to learn, not just instruction and rote learning and im noticing that outside of here it just seems to be "do this or youre fucking dumb and your plants are shit" if anyone asks questions or goes outside what they consider normal.

very much appreciate it, jay. id love to say i did something magic but half the time watered with tap, other half primo from the dispensers at the grocery store. few times i added brix and "extreme juice" when watering, and i put a bunch of myco in. after that it was just like you said, watch and listen.

 

[Mr Jay]

id love to say i did something magic but

You put in the time to learn the room. You are willing to create an environment in which plants will thrive.
And then the magic just happens.

 

[iwentdoodie]

so, quick question. the bunny nugs are good to go, how much do i need to worry about the straw/hay if it isnt gonna cook?

 

[Mr Jay]

THE BENEFITS AND USES OF RABBIT MANURE

Anyone who comes to the rabbitry and my homestead will see our many gardens. I have been asked many times what is your secret. You must use miracle grow they say. I just chuckle, thinking they just…

riseandshinerabbitry.com

HOW TO USE-

Use It As Is –
“Bunny Berries” – Because rabbit manure is dry,odorless,and in pellet form makes it suitable for direct use in the garden. It can be applied any time of the year and helps give your plants a boost during the growing season or as a storehouse of nutrients when applied in the late fall and winter. Because it is considered a cold manure there is no threat of burning plants and roots. So use it as a top- dressing, mulch around plants, bury in the ground under transplants or just working it into the soil right from the rabbit.

 

[greenmachine29]

I stay away from coir, it’s not really any more sustainable than peat, which is already highly regulated. Why do you think a bale of promix is going upwards of 45$-50$. Cause the amount of pest moss which can be harvested is limited each year no matter what the demand from the market… also in the states it may actually be more sustainable as it’s not shipped across the ocean.. then finally pest based mediums when used correctly can be recycled indefinitely. Can’t do that with coco no matter how hard you try. And what’s more eco friendly than recycling??? Never buying peat again just one purchase and reuse forever….

I get the coco draw and I was a coco fan for a while until I realized there was no benefit, perceived or imagined that could justify buying coir anymore. For me at least…. No trying to ruffle feathers.

I went down the coots rabbit hole, and it really works , my recipe is slightly different and coot would say no one has his soil cause they don’t have his compost which is the single most important thing in the mix…

Let’s say one cf (7.5)

2.5 gallon earth worm castings/ high quality compost

1.7 gallons perlite

3.3 gallons promix hp. This base gets the ration to roughly 1/3 1/3 1/3 of compost/ aeration/ peat accounting for the perlite in the promix product

3/4 cup each: kelp, alfalfa, neem, crab meals

1 cup each : gypsum, oyster shell, organic brown rice

That’s it, full cycle soil, let it cook for couple weeks and plant! Now this soil needs to stay extra wet compared to most mediums, Watering daily is key, typically 5–10% container size to water. Non phed water, hopefully tap water .

Then at harvest cut the bad of plant, keep all roots intact and mix in roughly half the original NPK amendments. As time goes on cycle after cycle things become more fluid and the additions at each recycle depend mostly on how the previous harvests fade was or was not. In the good dirt that runs say 3-5 rounds a lot of time you find zero fade and thus zero additions during recycle time. Instead you can get away with a heavy handed top dress once or twice. Even the top dress will make its way to plant nutrition the next round…..


most our amendments don’t even break down in the 2-3 month cycle we give a plant so basically we’ve been taught to toss our soil and redo the whole process. When really the soil really gets rocking at the 8-12 month age. Better yet 24 month age. Basically throwing food in the garbage

Organic head rent over…. Peace homies.

 

[iwentdoodie]

awesome post with a lot to think about.

question for you regarding reuse, though. do you say coco cant be just because of salts? if so, doesnt it become a non issue essentially if only using dry organic nutes vs liquid salts (organic or synth)?

i ask because based on a lot of reading, i had planned to chop at the base when theyre done, filter large chunks, and then mix it back in to new batches later. like you said, we're not using nearly all of what we put in.

i dont see any obvious reason why it would be harmful, but i am absolutely willing to admit im an idiot and take the L.

my mix is coco loco (2cuft bag), then mixed with kelp (per bag instruction for soil amendment but i cannot for life of me recall right now), worm castings 1c, vermiculite 1/2c, perlite 1/2c. moving forward it will also have some bunny poop and ground crustaceans. this is then amended per pot with the following at 2tbsp/gal in varying ratios at repot, and again at 2 to 3 week intervals via top feed:

Dr Earth Veg 4-6-3

NUTRIENT CONTENT:
Total Nitrogen (N)…………………………….4%
…..4% Water Insoluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5)….6%
Soluble Potash (K2O)……………………3%
Calcium (Ca)………………………………………7.5%
Sulfur (S)…………………………………………………….1%
Magnesium (Mg)………………………….0.3%
Iron (Fe)………………………………………………0.04%
Manganese (Mn)……………………0.002%

Fox Farms Happy Frog Fruit and Flower 4-9-3
cant find a break down on this. it wasnt my intended fert right now but its the one i could get.

and then theyre watered with bottled or tap depending on how lazy i was getting the 5g bottles refilled.

i know it will break down into finer material and need rotated in but i cant see a true deal breaker. i did consider mixing the used with some FF OF soil as thats much easier for me to get local now, though.

ever bought soil and 6 weeks later go to same store and not only is the soil gone, the whole store doesnt exist with no warning?

for the record i absolutely loathe the terms organic (and gmo) but unfortunately its just the terms as i know them to be used when it comes to gardening.

feels like this is a good discussion to have, because it feels like these styles of grow are being relegated to the past and being kept alive by people who are devoted to it, but the info is locked in their heads and not getting out in the world.

more than one way to shave a cat and all that

 

[Mr Jay]

Why do you think a bale of promix is going upwards of 45$-50$.

Marketing and the cost of shipping.

I can get 70lbs of Canuk Sphag for $22.
They harvest it just up the road.
Promix HP is up to %75 canuk Spag , %24 perlite,,,, dish soap, a little sheetrock and %100 markup.
Imagine if there was a 25% tariff on that, price will go up to 65-75

[PEAT sp?] ,,,pest based mediums when used correctly can be recycled indefinitely. Can’t do that with coco no matter how hard you try.

Christmas tree
Antler sheds
Rabbit hair
2 foot pike
50 lb bale of straw
Turkey carcass
every dead Mouse I can get my hands on

,, short list of things things my compost pile consumed this summer.
That hot pocket is chewing the corners off of my brick dividers, I don't see how coco would present a challenge.

 

[Mr Jay]

awesome post with a lot to think about.

I agree. I enjoy reading about other gardeners experiences and ideas.
Anyone with a jar of their own buds has a certain amount of inherent correctness.
These are the tracks I am laying down, and here are the flowers, delivered by that train of thought.
The open discussion allows me to see what works for you.
More data more data more data. Becoming more familiar with what works for other people allows me opportunity to see if those strategies would work here.

 

[greenmachine29]

awesome post with a lot to think about.

question for you regarding reuse, though. do you say coco cant be just because of salts? if so, doesnt it become a non issue essentially if only using dry organic nutes vs liquid salts (organic or synth)?

i ask because based on a lot of reading, i had planned to chop at the base when theyre done, filter large chunks, and then mix it back in to new batches later. like you said, we're not using nearly all of what we put in.

i dont see any obvious reason why it would be harmful, but i am absolutely willing to admit im an idiot and take the L.

my mix is coco loco (2cuft bag), then mixed with kelp (per bag instruction for soil amendment but i cannot for life of me recall right now), worm castings 1c, vermiculite 1/2c, perlite 1/2c. moving forward it will also have some bunny poop and ground crustaceans. this is then amended per pot with the following at 2tbsp/gal in varying ratios at repot, and again at 2 to 3 week intervals via top feed:

Dr Earth Veg 4-6-3

NUTRIENT CONTENT:
Total Nitrogen (N)…………………………….4%
…..4% Water Insoluble Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5)….6%
Soluble Potash (K2O)……………………3%
Calcium (Ca)………………………………………7.5%
Sulfur (S)…………………………………………………….1%
Magnesium (Mg)………………………….0.3%
Iron (Fe)………………………………………………0.04%
Manganese (Mn)……………………0.002%

Fox Farms Happy Frog Fruit and Flower 4-9-3
cant find a break down on this. it wasnt my intended fert right now but its the one i could get.

and then theyre watered with bottled or tap depending on how lazy i was getting the 5g bottles refilled.

i know it will break down into finer material and need rotated in but i cant see a true deal breaker. i did consider mixing the used with some FF OF soil as thats much easier for me to get local now, though.

ever bought soil and 6 weeks later go to same store and not only is the soil gone, the whole store doesnt exist with no warning?

for the record i absolutely loathe the terms organic (and gmo) but unfortunately its just the terms as i know them to be used when it comes to gardening.

feels like this is a good discussion to have, because it feels like these styles of grow are being relegated to the past and being kept alive by people who are devoted to it, but the info is locked in their heads and not getting out in the world.

more than one way to shave a cat and all that

Main reason coco mediums don’t recycle well is how far coco does break down. Out the bag it’s great and has decent properties but it just gets to muddy when broken down, and then it loses the properties of good soil medium. And when you look into Cation exchange capacity of different mediums the peat based always are way better. Just simply getting nutrient to the plants is much easier in peat.

Also peat moss being so old already, and the most broken down state it can possible be, doesn’t lose or swing over time. Like it just stays the same while all the humus and organic amendments can start breacking down all grovy and happy cause the soil microbes are super happy and healthy in the stable environment

 

[Mr Jay]

Dude, that makes sense to me.
Where the Peat remains structured, interactive, and more hospitable with the lower ph.

 

[Cradle of Mirth]

I found this interesting just listened to it last night. It gave me relief, in terms of Canadian peat. Sad about EU peat though.

 

[TrenchGeneral]

I stay away from coir, it’s not really any more sustainable than peat, which is already highly regulated. Why do you think a bale of promix is going upwards of 45$-50$. Cause the amount of pest moss which can be harvested is limited each year no matter what the demand from the market… also in the states it may actually be more sustainable as it’s not shipped across the ocean.. then finally pest based mediums when used correctly can be recycled indefinitely. Can’t do that with coco no matter how hard you try. And what’s more eco friendly than recycling??? Never buying peat again just one purchase and reuse forever….

I get the coco draw and I was a coco fan for a while until I realized there was no benefit, perceived or imagined that could justify buying coir anymore. For me at least…. No trying to ruffle feathers.

I went down the coots rabbit hole, and it really works , my recipe is slightly different and coot would say no one has his soil cause they don’t have his compost which is the single most important thing in the mix…

Let’s say one cf (7.5)

2.5 gallon earth worm castings/ high quality compost

1.7 gallons perlite

3.3 gallons promix hp. This base gets the ration to roughly 1/3 1/3 1/3 of compost/ aeration/ peat accounting for the perlite in the promix product

3/4 cup each: kelp, alfalfa, neem, crab meals

1 cup each : gypsum, oyster shell, organic brown rice

That’s it, full cycle soil, let it cook for couple weeks and plant! Now this soil needs to stay extra wet compared to most mediums, Watering daily is key, typically 5–10% container size to water. Non phed water, hopefully tap water .

Then at harvest cut the bad of plant, keep all roots intact and mix in roughly half the original NPK amendments. As time goes on cycle after cycle things become more fluid and the additions at each recycle depend mostly on how the previous harvests fade was or was not. In the good dirt that runs say 3-5 rounds a lot of time you find zero fade and thus zero additions during recycle time. Instead you can get away with a heavy handed top dress once or twice. Even the top dress will make its way to plant nutrition the next round…..


most our amendments don’t even break down in the 2-3 month cycle we give a plant so basically we’ve been taught to toss our soil and redo the whole process. When really the soil really gets rocking at the 8-12 month age. Better yet 24 month age. Basically throwing food in the garbage

Organic head rent over…. Peace homies.

would sips work well with this recipe?

 

[greenmachine29]

would sips work well with this recipe?

Yes! The soil structure will be perfect for SIP. If you follow base recipe pretty close.

People get in trouble when useing “pro mix” as peat and don’t account for the perlite in there to get the 1/3 1/3 1/3 peat, compost, aeration.

 

[TrenchGeneral]

Yes! The soil structure will be perfect for SIP. If you follow base recipe pretty close.

People get in trouble when useing “pro mix” as peat and don’t account for the perlite in there to get the 1/3 1/3 1/3 peat, compost, aeration.

awesome thank you. any particular source/brand you like to get your amendments? ill have to order places where im from just dont offer them.

 

[greenmachine29]

awesome thank you. any particular source/brand you like to get your amendments? ill have to order places where im from just dont offer them.

I like down to earth amendments. And Gaia green for minerals. Gaia green makes a beautiful basalt product, and glacial rock dust. And down to earths ammendments always seem to be highest quality and lowest heavy metals . I’m lucky with Amazon and plenty of grow stores still hiding away in the city.